Anyone tried making methanol from CO and H2O ?

Question:

(trimmed) > The "Lurgi" reaction is > CO2 + 3H2 -> CH3OH + CO2 over copper zinc catalysts (about 200 atm at > 200C but can work at lower pressures. Laboratory stuff often works at > 30 atm) > For production of ethanol. > 2CO2 + 6H2 -> C2H5OH > The catalyst in this case is molybdenum sulpide (or was it sulphite). > The reaction produces about 80% to 95% ethanol and 20% to 5% methanol > with a small amount of propanol/butanol.

WOW!!! Incredible! http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/DOE/DOE_reports/91301_t2/91301_t2.htm The catalyst appears to be molybdenum disulfide. Hmm… very interesting thanks for bringing this up! Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > (trimmed) > The "Lurgi" reaction is > CO2 + 3H2 -> CH3OH + CO2 over copper zinc catalysts (about 200 atm at > 200C but can work at lower pressures. Laboratory stuff often works at > 30 atm) > For production of ethanol. > 2CO2 + 6H2 -> C2H5OH > The catalyst in this case is molybdenum sulpide (or was it sulphite). > The reaction produces about 80% to 95% ethanol and 20% to 5% methanol > with a small amount of propanol/butanol. > WOW!!! Incredible! > http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/DOE/DOE_reports/91301_t2/91301_t2.htm > The catalyst appears to be molybdenum disulfide. > Hmm… very interesting thanks for bringing this up! > Mike

Hi, There has actualy been work in ETG (Ethanol To Gasoline) a process similar to MTG (Methanol To Gasoline) http://wwwchem.uwimona.edu.jm:1104/lectures/synfuel.html Ethanol synthesis may be slighly more efficient than methanol synthesis. The byproduct methanol would probably convert to gasoline as well in the zeolite. Fianly While methanol is a good fuel it is a little toxic for my liking ethanol may be much safer. "ETG" would give the farm/biomass derived ethanol a direct input into mainstream distribtution.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > google: water gas shift reaction > CO + H2O -> CO2 + H2 > methanol synthesis: > 3 H2 + CO2 -> CH3OH + H2O (copper (I? II?) oxide catalysts) > Theoretically this could work. You really need 3x as much hydrogen as > CO2… since the WGS reaction produces CO2 and H2 in a 1:1 mole ratio, > you’ll be diluting your reaction vessel with excess CO2, so the > reaction rate will slow down quite a bit. > 3 CO + 3 H2O -> 3 CO2 + 3 H2 > 3 H2 + CO2 -> CH3OH + H2O > net: 3 CO + 2 H2O -> CH3OH + 2 CO2 > Another (more efficient) way would be to separate the CO2 and H2 from > the WGS reaction using membranes: > http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/01/ucr-hbcu/lund.pdf > Good luck (and don’t blow yourself up, or poison yourself with the CO > or CH3OH!)

Thanks Mike, Sounds like a straightforward reaction, wonder how much harder it would be to go from methanol to ethanol, purely as a fuel for cars thats much safer to handle (;) ? Are there any stats you know of for minimum pressure temperature to provide most effective production rate. You see I may have access to CO or CO2 and steam at up to 2000psi and around 300deg C, so it would be a sheer waste to just vent it and wonder what minimum infrastructure could be pursued to (at least think about) making something useful out of it. The flow rate is not likely to be high and that is still to be determined. But it would be nice to have some methanol or seriously some ethanol gradually accumulating for use primarily as fuel. If it were viable, labour being clsoe to zero, then it might be a feasible adjunct to processing pharmacutical waste into a useful fuel… Nice to know that relatively cheap catalyst of copper oxides would be sufficient – without need something exotic like rhodium or platinum, rgds peter purple for a reason – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Mike

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> google: water gas shift reaction > CO + H2O -> CO2 + H2 > methanol synthesis: > 3 H2 + CO2 -> CH3OH + H2O (copper (I? II?) oxide catalysts) > Theoretically this could work. You really need 3x as much hydrogen as > CO2… since the WGS reaction produces CO2 and H2 in a 1:1 mole ratio, > you’ll be diluting your reaction vessel with excess CO2, so the > reaction rate will slow down quite a bit. > 3 CO + 3 H2O -> 3 CO2 + 3 H2 > 3 H2 + CO2 -> CH3OH + H2O > net: 3 CO + 2 H2O -> CH3OH + 2 CO2 > Another (more efficient) way would be to separate the CO2 and H2 from > the WGS reaction using membranes: > http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/01/ucr-hbcu/lund.pdf > Good luck (and don’t blow yourself up, or poison yourself with the CO > or CH3OH!) > Thanks Mike, > Sounds like a straightforward reaction, wonder how much harder it would > be to go from methanol to ethanol, purely as a fuel for cars thats much > safer to handle (;) ?

Much more difficult to make ethanol artificially from simple raw materials… you might go Fischer Tropsch, but that’s a mess, and capital-intensive, too. Better to do it by fermentation (of unrefined sugar, hydrolyzed cellulose, etc.) > Are there any stats you know of for minimum pressure temperature to > provide most effective production rate. > You see I may have access to CO or CO2 and steam at up to 2000psi > and around 300deg C, so it would be a sheer waste to just vent it

Vent CO? At least flare it first… How exactly do you have access to CO and steam at 2000 psi? Steam at 2000 psi requires a lot of energy… are you sure you’re not paying the coal/nuclear/natural gas company for electricity to make your steam and CO? > and > wonder what minimum infrastructure could be pursued to (at least think > about) making something useful out of it. The flow rate is not likely to > be high and that is still to be determined. But it would be nice to have > some methanol or seriously some ethanol gradually accumulating for > use primarily as fuel. If it were viable, labour being clsoe to zero, then > it might be a feasible adjunct to processing pharmacutical waste into > a useful fuel…

The problem with many renewable energy schemes is the capital cost. It’s difficult to find a businessman or lender who’s willing to pay the (huge) capital cost up front, even though long term there is no fuel cost (except for maintenance, which is non-negligible; you WILL, for instance, have to clean your PV panels, replace the ones that crack, maintain your wind turbine/fuel cell, etc.) On the other hand, if YOU decide to become the businessman, and become your own venture capitalist, so much the better! > Nice to know that relatively cheap catalyst of copper oxides would be > sufficient – without need something exotic like rhodium or platinum,

There was an article by (IIRC) Alexis Bell of UC Berkeley which discussed the kinetics of cuprous oxide catalysts on methanol synthesis from CO2 and H2. Very interesting reading. > rgds > peter purple for a reason > Mike

Mike

Response:

Well, sticking to raw economics here, theres mandated ethanol additive requirements for gasoline; I think its being driven by the farm lobby, imagine that, and they just pushed for an increase in ethanol additive. So theres your market: Oil refineries looking for less expensive fuel additives. > Are there any stats you know of for minimum pressure temperature to > provide most effective production rate. > You see I may have access to CO or CO2 and steam at up to 2000psi > and around 300deg C, so it would be a sheer waste to just vent it and > wonder what minimum infrastructure could be pursued to (at least think > about) making something useful out of it. The flow rate is not likely to > be high and that is still to be determined. But it would be nice to have > some methanol or seriously some ethanol gradually accumulating for > use primarily as fuel. If it were viable, labour being clsoe to zero, then > it might be a feasible adjunct to processing pharmacutical waste into > a useful fuel… > Nice to know that relatively cheap catalyst of copper oxides would be > sufficient – without need something exotic like rhodium or platinum,

Even without exotic catalists, is it economic? I mean there’s boatloads of stranded natural gas that would be nice to turn into methanol or ethanol (or longer chain parafins and oilfins) if the infrastructure was cheap enough. Of course, you have to reform the methane into synthesis gas, and if you have high pressure steam and CO I guess you’re halfway there. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out. (I’m quite curious)

Response:

The "Lurgi" reaction is CO2 + 3H2 -> CH3OH + CO2 over copper zinc catalysts (about 200 atm at 200C but can work at lower pressures. Laboratory stuff often works at 30 atm) For production of ethanol. 2CO2 + 6H2 -> C2H5OH The catalyst in this case is molybdenum sulpide (or was it sulphite). The reaction produces about 80% to 95% ethanol and 20% to 5% methanol with a small amount of propanol/butanol. Both the above reactions work better if CO is used instead of CO2 as the source of carbon. Inciently iso-butanol or iso-propanol works unmodified in a piston engine. The Germans used to make it in WW2 over a Chromium catalyst and dehydrate to iso-butane and polymerise to iso-octane. CO and H2 syngas was the feedstock and the output was isobutanol (18%) and methanol. The methanol was just recirculated. Metioned in the http://wwww.fischertropsch.org library. (hope I got the URL right) > Are there any stats you know of for minimum pressure temperature to > provide most effective production rate.

200atm at 200C works well but it can be varied widely. Degussa could tell you. > You see I may have access to CO or CO2 and steam at up to 2000psi > and around 300deg C, so it would be a sheer waste to just vent it and > wonder what minimum infrastructure could be pursued to (at least think > about) making something useful out of it. The flow rate is not likely to > be high and that is still to be determined. But it would be nice to have > some methanol or seriously some ethanol gradually accumulating for > use primarily as fuel. If it were viable, labour being clsoe to zero, then > it might be a feasible adjunct to processing pharmacutical waste into > a useful fuel…

You need a source of hydrogen. A Nork Hydro electrolyser and a gas turbine maybe or the water gas shift reaction and PSA (Pressure swing absorbtion) > Nice to know that relatively cheap catalyst of copper oxides would be > sufficient – without need something exotic like rhodium or platinum,

Copper Oxide or Copper Zinc Oxides. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> rgds > peter purple for a reason > Mike

Response:

Hi all, Has anyone on this list tried or anyone know of anyone who has made a methanol generator from a source of CO (or CO2) and H2O as steam, I know of a relatively handy source of CO, and dry steam up to around 2000psi, Could this be mixed, passed over a suitable catalyst, heat added and the outcome some amount of methanol ? I’d like to do this without having ti feed in H2, is it enough to have hot CO, and steam and pass it over a catalyst at suitable pressure ? Any suggestions ? regards peter purple, home tinkerer with attitude to success

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi all, > Has anyone on this list tried or anyone know of anyone who has made > a methanol generator from a source of CO (or CO2) and H2O as steam, > I know of a relatively handy source of CO, and dry steam up to around > 2000psi, > Could this be mixed, passed over a suitable catalyst, heat added > and the outcome some amount of methanol ? > I’d like to do this without having ti feed in H2, is it enough to > have hot CO, and steam and pass it over a catalyst at suitable > pressure ? > Any suggestions ? > regards > peter purple, home tinkerer with attitude to success

google: water gas shift reaction CO + H2O -> CO2 + H2 methanol synthesis: 3 H2 + CO2 -> CH3OH + H2O (copper (I? II?) oxide catalysts) Theoretically this could work. You really need 3x as much hydrogen as CO2… since the WGS reaction produces CO2 and H2 in a 1:1 mole ratio, you’ll be diluting your reaction vessel with excess CO2, so the reaction rate will slow down quite a bit. 3 CO + 3 H2O -> 3 CO2 + 3 H2 3 H2 + CO2 -> CH3OH + H2O net: 3 CO + 2 H2O -> CH3OH + 2 CO2 Another (more efficient) way would be to separate the CO2 and H2 from the WGS reaction using membranes: http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/01/ucr-hbcu/lund.pdf Good luck (and don’t blow yourself up, or poison yourself with the CO or CH3OH!) Mike

Renewable Energy Source

Q&A's about Renewable Energy

Renewable Energy

Anyone tried making methanol from CO and H2O ?

Question:

Response:

Response:

Response:

Response:

Response:

Response:

Response:

Response:

Related Posts

Write a comment