Detailed info required on Biodiesel
Question:
>I must admit that given how bloody annoying usenet vegetarians can be it >rather pleases me that biodiesel can in no way be regarded as "suitable for >vegetarians".
Subject to origin I guess… Will we see a green ‘V’ on fuel pumps soon ? >I wonder if biodiesel exhaust contains BSE prions? Presumably passing >through a vehicle engine must kill even the hardiest of nasties.
The way autoclaving for a long time doesn’t ? Hmmm… There there’s the fact that many biodiesel vehicles smell like a fire in a chip shop ! TLV for acrylaldehyde anybody ? Cheers, J/. — John Beardmore
Response:
Cheers for all the feedback so far. Ok, let’s standardise by talking solely about "B100" biodiesel (specs at http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/BDSpec.PDF), CAS no. 67784-80-9 by chemical classification. I believe these are one and the same thing; correct me if wrong. Let’s not talk about DIY biodiesel for now. Still looking for B100’s: 1) Heat of formation 2) Specific heat capacity 3) Chemical composition of the major molecular constituents, especially HC lengths …And I’ll settle for Density=0.88g/ml as I’ve seen this on several different docs so far. That’s all! Thanks, Matt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– [much snippage] > >Hi All, > >Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical > >biodiesel: > Are you referring to biodiesel proper which is de-esterified plant oils or are > you referring to chip oil used as a diesel replacement which is an ester ? > >1) Heat of formation > From what ? > >2) Specific heat capacity > >3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical > >composition > >4) Density > Vary depending on which plant oil is used. > With what composition ? > Cheers, J/. > — > John Beardmore
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi John, > Re 1): Definition of ‘heat of formation’ (from > http://members.axion.net/~enrique/fuelheatofformation.html): > "Fuel heat of formation is the amount of energy per kilomole of substance > required to form the molecule in the state it is in while in the fuel tank > from elemental molecules at standard conditions. A positive number means > energy is required to form the molecule and it will release energy when > going to the standard state of its elemental components. A negative number > means energy is released when forming the molecule and it will absorb energy > when going to the standard state of its elemental components. Generally the > higher the number, the more reactive or volatile the substance will be. When > a substance is heated, its heat of formation rises." > … Can’t seem to find anything written up on this yet. > Re 3): I need to know the various constituent molecules typically found in > an average batch of biodiesel, ignoring H2O content. Specifically interested > in what hydrocarbon chain lengths are present. > Re 4): Also need to know the density of an average batch of biodiesel. I now > read that density is around 0.88g/ml – anyone disagree?
How "average" does biodiesel in the UK get? Does it all get blended? Is some imported? In the US it seems they classify biodiesel as being "from domestic renewable resources such as soybean oil, rapeseed, cottonseed, sunflower oil, beef tallow, pork lard, yellow grease and corn oil." Given that UK domestic oils might include linseed and mutton fat, but not cotton, corn oil or soybean I reckon you could find that biodiesels will vary from country to country depending on the livestock and crops they farm. I must admit that given how bloody annoying usenet vegetarians can be it rather pleases me that biodiesel can in no way be regarded as "suitable for vegetarians". I wonder if biodiesel exhaust contains BSE prions? Presumably passing through a vehicle engine must kill even the hardiest of nasties. Michael Saunby
Response:
> >Hi All, >Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical >biodiesel:
Are you referring to biodiesel proper which is de-esterified plant oils or are you referring to chip oil used as a diesel replacement which is an ester ? >1) Heat of formation > From what ? >2) Specific heat capacity >3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical >composition >4) Density
Vary depending on which plant oil is used. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> With what composition ? > Cheers, J/. > — > John Beardmore
Response:
>> >1) Heat of formation > From what ? >Re 1): Definition of ‘heat of formation’ (from >http://members.axion.net/~enrique/fuelheatofformation.html): >"Fuel heat of formation is the amount of energy per kilomole of substance
But the fuel is a complex mixture of substances. Do you know what they all are in and what ratio they are present ? >required to form the molecule in the state it is in while in the fuel tank >from elemental molecules at standard conditions.
OK, but what I’m getting at is that mix of substances in the product will depend on the choice of fatty starting material and the reaction used. Some can incorporate the glycerol in the fuel, others do not. > A positive number means >energy is required to form the molecule and it will release energy when >going to the standard state of its elemental components.
You talk about "the molecule" as though a single compound is being produced. It isn’t. > A negative number >means energy is released when forming the molecule and it will absorb energy >when going to the standard state of its elemental components.
So far so good. > Generally the >higher the number, the more reactive or volatile the substance will be.
OK, but this completely fudges over the divide between reaction thermodynamics and kinetics which is perhaps a more handy way to look at it. > When >a substance is heated, its heat of formation rises."
You mean if a substance requires heat to form or what ? >… Can’t seem to find anything written up on this yet.
Look for physical chemistry books by Atkins. >Re 3): I need to know the various constituent molecules typically found in >an average batch of biodiesel, ignoring H2O content. Specifically interested >in what hydrocarbon chain lengths are present.
OK, good, because with out that you won’t know the weight of a mole of anything. >Re 4): Also need to know the density of an average batch of biodiesel. I now >read that density is around 0.88g/ml – anyone disagree?
That’s much what I would have guessed, but it may depend on the average chain length ? Given that you are dealing with complex mixtures that have practical uses, I’d have thought that the smart money would be on knowing things like the heat of combustion of a litre of the fuel, or heat of reaction when a pigs worth of fat meets sodium methoxide ? Cheers, J/. — John Beardmore
Response:
Hi John, Re 1): Definition of ‘heat of formation’ (from http://members.axion.net/~enrique/fuelheatofformation.html): "Fuel heat of formation is the amount of energy per kilomole of substance required to form the molecule in the state it is in while in the fuel tank from elemental molecules at standard conditions. A positive number means energy is required to form the molecule and it will release energy when going to the standard state of its elemental components. A negative number means energy is released when forming the molecule and it will absorb energy when going to the standard state of its elemental components. Generally the higher the number, the more reactive or volatile the substance will be. When a substance is heated, its heat of formation rises." … Can’t seem to find anything written up on this yet. Re 3): I need to know the various constituent molecules typically found in an average batch of biodiesel, ignoring H2O content. Specifically interested in what hydrocarbon chain lengths are present. Re 4): Also need to know the density of an average batch of biodiesel. I now read that density is around 0.88g/ml – anyone disagree? Thanks, Matt.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi All, >Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical >biodiesel: >1) Heat of formation > From what ? >2) Specific heat capacity >3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical >composition >4) Density > With what composition ? > Cheers, J/. > — > John Beardmore
Response:
Hi All, Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical biodiesel: 1) Heat of formation 2) Specific heat capacity 3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical composition 4) Density Please reply to newsgroup, email not working. Thanks in advance, Matt.
Response:
>Hi All, >Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical >biodiesel: >1) Heat of formation
From what ? >2) Specific heat capacity >3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical >composition >4) Density
With what composition ? Cheers, J/. — John Beardmore
Response:
Hi All, Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical biodiesel: 1) Heat of formation 2) Specific heat capacity 3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical composition 4) Density Please reply to newsgroup, email not working. Thanks in advance, Matt.
Response:
>Hi All, >Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical >biodiesel: >1) Heat of formation
From what ? >2) Specific heat capacity >3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical >composition >4) Density
With what composition ? Cheers, J/. — John Beardmore
Response:
Hi John, Re 1): Definition of ‘heat of formation’ (from http://members.axion.net/~enrique/fuelheatofformation.html): "Fuel heat of formation is the amount of energy per kilomole of substance required to form the molecule in the state it is in while in the fuel tank from elemental molecules at standard conditions. A positive number means energy is required to form the molecule and it will release energy when going to the standard state of its elemental components. A negative number means energy is released when forming the molecule and it will absorb energy when going to the standard state of its elemental components. Generally the higher the number, the more reactive or volatile the substance will be. When a substance is heated, its heat of formation rises." … Can’t seem to find anything written up on this yet. Re 3): I need to know the various constituent molecules typically found in an average batch of biodiesel, ignoring H2O content. Specifically interested in what hydrocarbon chain lengths are present. Re 4): Also need to know the density of an average batch of biodiesel. I now read that density is around 0.88g/ml – anyone disagree? Thanks, Matt.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi All, >Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical >biodiesel: >1) Heat of formation > From what ? >2) Specific heat capacity >3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical >composition >4) Density > With what composition ? > Cheers, J/. > — > John Beardmore
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi John, > Re 1): Definition of ‘heat of formation’ (from > http://members.axion.net/~enrique/fuelheatofformation.html): > "Fuel heat of formation is the amount of energy per kilomole of substance > required to form the molecule in the state it is in while in the fuel tank > from elemental molecules at standard conditions. A positive number means > energy is required to form the molecule and it will release energy when > going to the standard state of its elemental components. A negative number > means energy is released when forming the molecule and it will absorb energy > when going to the standard state of its elemental components. Generally the > higher the number, the more reactive or volatile the substance will be. When > a substance is heated, its heat of formation rises." > … Can’t seem to find anything written up on this yet. > Re 3): I need to know the various constituent molecules typically found in > an average batch of biodiesel, ignoring H2O content. Specifically interested > in what hydrocarbon chain lengths are present. > Re 4): Also need to know the density of an average batch of biodiesel. I now > read that density is around 0.88g/ml – anyone disagree?
How "average" does biodiesel in the UK get? Does it all get blended? Is some imported? In the US it seems they classify biodiesel as being "from domestic renewable resources such as soybean oil, rapeseed, cottonseed, sunflower oil, beef tallow, pork lard, yellow grease and corn oil." Given that UK domestic oils might include linseed and mutton fat, but not cotton, corn oil or soybean I reckon you could find that biodiesels will vary from country to country depending on the livestock and crops they farm. I must admit that given how bloody annoying usenet vegetarians can be it rather pleases me that biodiesel can in no way be regarded as "suitable for vegetarians". I wonder if biodiesel exhaust contains BSE prions? Presumably passing through a vehicle engine must kill even the hardiest of nasties. Michael Saunby
Response:
> >Hi All, >Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical >biodiesel:
Are you referring to biodiesel proper which is de-esterified plant oils or are you referring to chip oil used as a diesel replacement which is an ester ? >1) Heat of formation > From what ? >2) Specific heat capacity >3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical >composition >4) Density
Vary depending on which plant oil is used. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> With what composition ? > Cheers, J/. > — > John Beardmore
Response:
>> >1) Heat of formation > From what ? >Re 1): Definition of ‘heat of formation’ (from >http://members.axion.net/~enrique/fuelheatofformation.html): >"Fuel heat of formation is the amount of energy per kilomole of substance
But the fuel is a complex mixture of substances. Do you know what they all are in and what ratio they are present ? >required to form the molecule in the state it is in while in the fuel tank >from elemental molecules at standard conditions.
OK, but what I’m getting at is that mix of substances in the product will depend on the choice of fatty starting material and the reaction used. Some can incorporate the glycerol in the fuel, others do not. > A positive number means >energy is required to form the molecule and it will release energy when >going to the standard state of its elemental components.
You talk about "the molecule" as though a single compound is being produced. It isn’t. > A negative number >means energy is released when forming the molecule and it will absorb energy >when going to the standard state of its elemental components.
So far so good. > Generally the >higher the number, the more reactive or volatile the substance will be.
OK, but this completely fudges over the divide between reaction thermodynamics and kinetics which is perhaps a more handy way to look at it. > When >a substance is heated, its heat of formation rises."
You mean if a substance requires heat to form or what ? >… Can’t seem to find anything written up on this yet.
Look for physical chemistry books by Atkins. >Re 3): I need to know the various constituent molecules typically found in >an average batch of biodiesel, ignoring H2O content. Specifically interested >in what hydrocarbon chain lengths are present.
OK, good, because with out that you won’t know the weight of a mole of anything. >Re 4): Also need to know the density of an average batch of biodiesel. I now >read that density is around 0.88g/ml – anyone disagree?
That’s much what I would have guessed, but it may depend on the average chain length ? Given that you are dealing with complex mixtures that have practical uses, I’d have thought that the smart money would be on knowing things like the heat of combustion of a litre of the fuel, or heat of reaction when a pigs worth of fat meets sodium methoxide ? Cheers, J/. — John Beardmore
Response:
>I must admit that given how bloody annoying usenet vegetarians can be it >rather pleases me that biodiesel can in no way be regarded as "suitable for >vegetarians".
Subject to origin I guess… Will we see a green ‘V’ on fuel pumps soon ? >I wonder if biodiesel exhaust contains BSE prions? Presumably passing >through a vehicle engine must kill even the hardiest of nasties.
The way autoclaving for a long time doesn’t ? Hmmm… There there’s the fact that many biodiesel vehicles smell like a fire in a chip shop ! TLV for acrylaldehyde anybody ? Cheers, J/. — John Beardmore
Response:
Cheers for all the feedback so far. Ok, let’s standardise by talking solely about "B100" biodiesel (specs at http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/BDSpec.PDF), CAS no. 67784-80-9 by chemical classification. I believe these are one and the same thing; correct me if wrong. Let’s not talk about DIY biodiesel for now. Still looking for B100’s: 1) Heat of formation 2) Specific heat capacity 3) Chemical composition of the major molecular constituents, especially HC lengths …And I’ll settle for Density=0.88g/ml as I’ve seen this on several different docs so far. That’s all! Thanks, Matt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– [much snippage] > >Hi All, > >Please can anyone tell me, definitively, the following properties of typical > >biodiesel: > Are you referring to biodiesel proper which is de-esterified plant oils or are > you referring to chip oil used as a diesel replacement which is an ester ? > >1) Heat of formation > From what ? > >2) Specific heat capacity > >3) Number of atoms of each element per ‘average’ molecule, ie. the chemical > >composition > >4) Density > Vary depending on which plant oil is used. > With what composition ? > Cheers, J/. > — > John Beardmore
Response:
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